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	<title>Comments on: Creepy guys, comics, kiddie porn and the first amendment</title>
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	<link>http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274</link>
	<description>Mystery/graphic novels by Tim Broderick</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2010 19:40:54 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Creepy guys, revisited</title>
		<link>http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274&#038;cpage=1#comment-6305</link>
		<dc:creator>Creepy guys, revisited</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:33:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274#comment-6305</guid>
		<description>[...] the Christopher Handley case was resolved recently, he got a six-month sentence plus a mess of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Christopher Handley case was resolved recently, he got a six-month sentence plus a mess of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tyciol</title>
		<link>http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274&#038;cpage=1#comment-6019</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyciol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 07:24:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274#comment-6019</guid>
		<description>This is the main problem, if a jury is going to convict a guy based on not liking him then this is not justice at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the main problem, if a jury is going to convict a guy based on not liking him then this is not justice at all.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274&#038;cpage=1#comment-6008</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 10:16:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274#comment-6008</guid>
		<description>Hi Ed

Thanks for your thoughts, here&#039;s my response.

First, you seem to contradict yourself a bit. 
On the one hand, you report that adult manga anthologies are a mixed bag, and you don&#039;t know what you&#039;re getting until the book arrives. You criticize me for not knowing that. In reality, that&#039;s been my understanding of the situation for a number years, and one of the reasons I&#039;m not interested in &quot;adult&quot; manga (as opposed to manga geared to adults), is that material involving children could pop up.
On the other hand, you seem to feel that not knowing whether child porn would be included in an anthology is the same as not knowing that it could be included. I don&#039;t see that being the same thing, and - as you point out - it seems that generally collectors are aware of this possibility. 
But, regardless, it would be good news if Handley didn&#039;t know he was getting the child porn. If so, that could go a long way to mitigating his sentence. I sure hope so.

Secondly, I&#039;m going to take issue with the idea there was nothing creepy there. 
Now, again, I don&#039;t know Handley so I can&#039;t judge him personally.
I&#039;m only going off of the online descriptions of the content in question, but drawn pictures of kids having sex with animals is creepy, OK? That&#039;s not something I&#039;m going to compromise on. You may feel differently, but there&#039;s a whole lot of people who would disagree with you - some of whom may have been willing to work in Handley&#039;s defense. (Unfortunately &lt;a href=&quot;http://matt-thorn.com/wordpress/?p=318&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Matt Thorn&#039;s post&lt;/a&gt; was removed where he gave his opinion about this kind of stuff.)
You see, we&#039;re not talking about a legal term here. No one has to be prosecuted or convicted for something or someone to be judged as &quot;creepy.&quot; And you can feel something or someone is creepy and still defend their right to be creepy. You just may have to hold your nose when you give money to Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, which I plan to do at this year&#039;s Wizard World in Chicago.
And we&#039;re not the ones you need to worry about - you need to worry about the people who think you should be prosecuted for having comics, and there&#039;s a whole lot more them and they have the law and public opinion behind them.

Last, I quite obviously disagree with your characterization of my analysis. It&#039;s the kind of conversation ordinary people who have faced prohibitions in the past had and will continue to have. 
At least the smart people will. They&#039;ll examine the situation, figure out what the person did that resulted in them getting caught. See if there&#039;s any way to change behaviors in order to avoid getting caught. Imagine the legal framework for overturning the law.
And I&#039;ve got to tell you, I don&#039;t see a lot of alternatives out there. Prohibition against liquor was useless because so many people opposed it. There&#039;s a prohibition against marijuana, but opinion is gradually changing and the money involved allows for a sophisticated distribution network that gets around the law.
But this stuff - man. You may not have the law enforcement intensity of the &quot;war on drugs,&quot; but in many ways if you do happen to get caught it&#039;s a lot worse. A huge uphill climb in public opinion, a law with very little chance of being successfully challenged and serious consequences if convicted. You&#039;re in deeper crap than if you get caught with an amount of pot that&#039;s the same weight as a typical trade paperback. 
Personally I don&#039;t see a lot of upside here. Even if &quot;Lost Girls&quot; was brought up in the most enlightened and liberal courtroom in the nation, it probably wouldn&#039;t work as a constitutional challenge because the charges would probably be dropped as the book wouldn&#039;t meet the obscenity test.

I think the best, most safe option is to stop buying stuff like and give the money instead to the CBLDF. (And there&#039;s probably a business opportunity for someone to publish comics porn that would survive the legal challenge - bet they&#039;re already out there )
But, your mileage may vary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ed</p>
<p>Thanks for your thoughts, here&#8217;s my response.</p>
<p>First, you seem to contradict yourself a bit.<br />
On the one hand, you report that adult manga anthologies are a mixed bag, and you don&#8217;t know what you&#8217;re getting until the book arrives. You criticize me for not knowing that. In reality, that&#8217;s been my understanding of the situation for a number years, and one of the reasons I&#8217;m not interested in &#8220;adult&#8221; manga (as opposed to manga geared to adults), is that material involving children could pop up.<br />
On the other hand, you seem to feel that not knowing whether child porn would be included in an anthology is the same as not knowing that it could be included. I don&#8217;t see that being the same thing, and &#8211; as you point out &#8211; it seems that generally collectors are aware of this possibility.<br />
But, regardless, it would be good news if Handley didn&#8217;t know he was getting the child porn. If so, that could go a long way to mitigating his sentence. I sure hope so.</p>
<p>Secondly, I&#8217;m going to take issue with the idea there was nothing creepy there.<br />
Now, again, I don&#8217;t know Handley so I can&#8217;t judge him personally.<br />
I&#8217;m only going off of the online descriptions of the content in question, but drawn pictures of kids having sex with animals is creepy, OK? That&#8217;s not something I&#8217;m going to compromise on. You may feel differently, but there&#8217;s a whole lot of people who would disagree with you &#8211; some of whom may have been willing to work in Handley&#8217;s defense. (Unfortunately <a href="http://matt-thorn.com/wordpress/?p=318" rel="nofollow">Matt Thorn&#8217;s post</a> was removed where he gave his opinion about this kind of stuff.)<br />
You see, we&#8217;re not talking about a legal term here. No one has to be prosecuted or convicted for something or someone to be judged as &#8220;creepy.&#8221; And you can feel something or someone is creepy and still defend their right to be creepy. You just may have to hold your nose when you give money to Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, which I plan to do at this year&#8217;s Wizard World in Chicago.<br />
And we&#8217;re not the ones you need to worry about &#8211; you need to worry about the people who think you should be prosecuted for having comics, and there&#8217;s a whole lot more them and they have the law and public opinion behind them.</p>
<p>Last, I quite obviously disagree with your characterization of my analysis. It&#8217;s the kind of conversation ordinary people who have faced prohibitions in the past had and will continue to have.<br />
At least the smart people will. They&#8217;ll examine the situation, figure out what the person did that resulted in them getting caught. See if there&#8217;s any way to change behaviors in order to avoid getting caught. Imagine the legal framework for overturning the law.<br />
And I&#8217;ve got to tell you, I don&#8217;t see a lot of alternatives out there. Prohibition against liquor was useless because so many people opposed it. There&#8217;s a prohibition against marijuana, but opinion is gradually changing and the money involved allows for a sophisticated distribution network that gets around the law.<br />
But this stuff &#8211; man. You may not have the law enforcement intensity of the &#8220;war on drugs,&#8221; but in many ways if you do happen to get caught it&#8217;s a lot worse. A huge uphill climb in public opinion, a law with very little chance of being successfully challenged and serious consequences if convicted. You&#8217;re in deeper crap than if you get caught with an amount of pot that&#8217;s the same weight as a typical trade paperback.<br />
Personally I don&#8217;t see a lot of upside here. Even if &#8220;Lost Girls&#8221; was brought up in the most enlightened and liberal courtroom in the nation, it probably wouldn&#8217;t work as a constitutional challenge because the charges would probably be dropped as the book wouldn&#8217;t meet the obscenity test.</p>
<p>I think the best, most safe option is to stop buying stuff like and give the money instead to the CBLDF. (And there&#8217;s probably a business opportunity for someone to publish comics porn that would survive the legal challenge &#8211; bet they&#8217;re already out there )<br />
But, your mileage may vary.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274&#038;cpage=1#comment-6006</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 10:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274#comment-6006</guid>
		<description>This is a comment from Ed Sizemore, who had some trouble posting very early yesterday.

Honestly, how much do you know about manga, particularly adult manga? I  ask
because it seems obvious that you&#039;ve not looked though an adult manga anthology. They are a mixed bag of short stories.   The vendors that 
sell these products to the US dont provide a comprehensive contents list, so you dont know what youre getting until you look through the book when it arrives. So Handley ordered an anthology believing he was getting the
standard adult entertainment featuring adults and one story of at least  20 turned out to be kiddie porn.  He didnt know that when he purchased it.
Also, dont forget Amazon-Japan used to sell these products until last year or so.  As you rightly point out, without knowing the specifics its hard to say. But its possible and most probable that Handley ordered an adult
book from a reputable on-line book source and got a book that contains a small percentage of objectionable material.  Theres nothing creepy 
there, just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Its this kind of analysis that ends up putting guys like Handley unjustly behind bars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a comment from Ed Sizemore, who had some trouble posting very early yesterday.</p>
<p>Honestly, how much do you know about manga, particularly adult manga? I  ask<br />
because it seems obvious that you&#8217;ve not looked though an adult manga anthology. They are a mixed bag of short stories.   The vendors that<br />
sell these products to the US dont provide a comprehensive contents list, so you dont know what youre getting until you look through the book when it arrives. So Handley ordered an anthology believing he was getting the<br />
standard adult entertainment featuring adults and one story of at least  20 turned out to be kiddie porn.  He didnt know that when he purchased it.<br />
Also, dont forget Amazon-Japan used to sell these products until last year or so.  As you rightly point out, without knowing the specifics its hard to say. But its possible and most probable that Handley ordered an adult<br />
book from a reputable on-line book source and got a book that contains a small percentage of objectionable material.  Theres nothing creepy<br />
there, just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Its this kind of analysis that ends up putting guys like Handley unjustly behind bars.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274&#038;cpage=1#comment-5984</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 15:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274#comment-5984</guid>
		<description>Hi Ayame
Actually, I did look into the book - seems pretty harmless to me. But it doesn&#039;t matter what you and I think does it? When you find yourself being judged in the criminal justice system, it&#039;s a good idea to understand who may be judging you and not give them any reason to think negatively about you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ayame<br />
Actually, I did look into the book &#8211; seems pretty harmless to me. But it doesn&#8217;t matter what you and I think does it? When you find yourself being judged in the criminal justice system, it&#8217;s a good idea to understand who may be judging you and not give them any reason to think negatively about you.</p>
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		<title>By: Ayame</title>
		<link>http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274&#038;cpage=1#comment-5982</link>
		<dc:creator>Ayame</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 14:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274#comment-5982</guid>
		<description>You might want to research just what the &quot;Gothic and Lolita Bible&quot; actually is before you pass judgment on it. One of his other &quot;violations&quot; of his release conditions was visiting AnimeNewsNetwork.com. Go figure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You might want to research just what the &#8220;Gothic and Lolita Bible&#8221; actually is before you pass judgment on it. One of his other &#8220;violations&#8221; of his release conditions was visiting AnimeNewsNetwork.com. Go figure.</p>
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		<title>By: MangaBlog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Christopher Handley update</title>
		<link>http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274&#038;cpage=1#comment-5980</link>
		<dc:creator>MangaBlog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Christopher Handley update</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 13:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274#comment-5980</guid>
		<description>[...] the postmaster was suspicious enough to open Handley&#8217;s mail in the first place. Tim Broderick wonders if there was something about the package that flagged it as containing obscene materials. That part [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the postmaster was suspicious enough to open Handley&#8217;s mail in the first place. Tim Broderick wonders if there was something about the package that flagged it as containing obscene materials. That part [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274&#038;cpage=1#comment-5957</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 22:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.timbroderick.net/?p=274#comment-5957</guid>
		<description>The other creepy guys who are all no-girls-were-harmed-IRL-but-I-miss-the-good-old-days-when-society-accepted-men-fucking-girls-IRL about this (scroll down at http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2009/05/21/handley-pleads-guilty/ ) aren&#039;t helping things either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The other creepy guys who are all no-girls-were-harmed-IRL-but-I-miss-the-good-old-days-when-society-accepted-men-fucking-girls-IRL about this (scroll down at <a href="http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2009/05/21/handley-pleads-guilty/" rel="nofollow">http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2009/05/21/handley-pleads-guilty/</a> ) aren&#8217;t helping things either.</p>
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